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Paul

Time-travel Paradoxes!

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Guest Curious

Timetravel_0, People have been "warned" of the upcoming events (or high probability of) for sometime. The date seems to move up and down the timeline a little, but the out come seems to be the same. Some of the "new age crackpots(?)" have already said this. A few have even given an estimate of when (some have been close to the year you stated). From what I understand, it is coinciding with a natural disaster (or cosmic event). I hope not be around then. Have a safe trip. Good luck.
Curious
--------------------------------------------
Pardon my intrusion on your post, I thought it would be more suitable to include the following information here, as it is synonymous with your post, and placing it at the end of this thread where the conversation has taken a different direction altogether would not be in sync with the current flow of thought.
p)'i4q4-----------------

Flood forthcoming

Monday, November 27 2000 @ 03:26 AM EST
Contributed by: Porfiry
Global warming could be on the verge of triggering a rise in sea levels that would flood huge swathes of the Earth's most densely populated regions, says an unpublished report from the world's top climate scientists. Caused in large part by the melting of Greenland's ice sheet, this process would take a thousand years or more but would be "irreversible" once under way.

The report, due to be published next May by the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), is being read by the world's governments. The final draft seen by New Scientist suggests that dozens of the countries meeting this week to agree on global warming limits through the Kyoto Protocol may face being wiped off the world map.

Four years ago, the IPCC forecast that sea levels could rise by half a metre in this century and by a maximum of between 1.5 and 3 metres over the coming 500 years. The new assessment suggests an eventual rise of 7 to 13 metres is more likely. This is enough to drown immense areas of land and many major cities. These rises will occur even if governments succeed in halting global warming within the next few decades, the report says.

Two factors are causing the rise: the slow spread of heat to the ocean depths and the destabilising of major ice sheets. It will take about a thousand years for warming in the atmosphere to reach the bottom of the oceans. The resulting thermal expansion "would continue to raise sea levels for many centuries after stabilisation of greenhouse gas concentrations". Even if global warming is halted within a century, thermal expansion will eventually raise the oceans by between 0.5 and 4 metres.

Even more alarming is the fate of the ice that covers Greenland. Among all of the world's ice sheets, this is now thought to be "the most vulnerable to climatic warming". It contains enough snow and ice to raise sea levels by about 7 metres if it melts. And this looks increasingly likely to happen.

Models show that after any warming above 2.7 °C, "the Greenland ice sheet eventually disappears". Nearly all predictions show Greenland warming more than this, says the report, and the faster the warming, the faster the melting. An extra 5.5 °C would cause sea levels to rise by 3 metres over a thousand years. An 8 °C warming would cause a 6-metre rise in sea levels in the same time.

The report's authors are not allowed to discuss their findings until publication. But Jonathan Gregory of Britain's Hadley Centre for Climate Prediction and Research in Bracknell, who co-authored the chapter on sea level, told New Scientist recently that once under way, the disintegration of the Greenland ice sheet would be "irreversible this side of a new ice age".

The fate of the West Antarctic ice sheet, which is perched on submerged islands, remains controversial, says the report. If it melted, it would raise sea levels by a further 6 metres. Some experts quoted in the report predict that the sheet could entirely disappear within 700 years. Others, supported by the authors, expect that the sheet will contribute "no more than 3 metres" to sea level in that time.

If sea levels were 10 metres higher than today by the year 3000, it would cause the inundation of a total area larger than the US, with a population of more than a billion people and most of the world's most fertile farmland.

Fred Pearce

From New Scientist magazine, 25 November 2000.

[This message has been edited by Time02112 (edited 27 November 2000).]

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TimeTravel_0-
is there some reason you are not responding to any of my e-mails lately?
I have deleted all of your e-mails from my computer to protect you.noone will ever know your e-mail address. that is my promise to you.
if your not going to reply to me can you just answer me one question....was that you I seen? or you can e-mail me if you still can.
sincerely,
pamela

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Guest daViper

Contrary to popular belief, and certain speculations here, the plain simple fact is, ther ARE no paradoxes. There never have been and there never will be. The term itself is an oxymoron and an invention of the intellect of the human mind, in search of creative thought and outright fantasy. The Universe exists without either the need for, or possibility of them.

Once one comes to this simple realization, one can then put the concept of "Time Travel" in IT'S proper perspective. Namely, that as is usually thought of, it doesn't exist. Never has, never will. For the simple reason that our invented concept of time itself is fundamentally flawed. Time is not an entity. It is a unit of measurement invented by man, to define the interval between cause and effect. Like Meter. Or Yard. Or Foot. Or pound. Can we "Meter" travel? or "Foot" travel? Or perhaps "Acre" travel? Gets silly doesn't it. Why does anyone think you can actually "Time" travel?

Interesting that the so called "Twins Paradox" was not discussed in depth here, but then it's really not a paradox at all. It is only beleived to BE one by people who do not understand the simple laws of physics and the Theory of relativity.

If anyone is interested, I can show you how it CANNOT be a paradox. Unless you already know. In which case you wouldn't be here speculating on the "how" of something that doesn't exist in the first place.

It isn't that Time Travel is not possible, it's that there is NO SUCH THING in the first place. Never has been. Never will be. Like the Gods of MT. Olympus. Or the Fire Breathing Dragons of old. And Pegasus. Or the Earth as the Center of the Universe. It's mythology. Based on INNOCENT ignorance. It's a skewed concept created by a lack of understanding of the fundamental Theories of relativity (General and Special), in the first place.

And it doesn't require "Multiple" Universes to solve. If there are multiple universes, than there MUST be an INFINITE number of them. In which case, all things that have ever happened, will happen, are happening Now. If THAT'S the case, what makes anyone think they have anything resembling free will at all?

Alas, I'm afrid even THIS attempt to resolve the so called "paradoxes" of Time Travel is also a pursuit in search of what is a non-existant problem in the first place. Another lapse into inventing a new mythology.

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Guest Shadow

TimeTravel_0

Checked out the picture and documents (Pamala?) posted. Your '67 Chev looks remarkably new.......hmmmm

If the manual is leggit and thats a real working time machine in your front seat, the OBVIOUS conclusion, if not the correct conclusion, is that you are either in the employ of the US Army or you stole the friggen thing. I hardly think you picked it up for 20 bucks at the surplus store.

Looks like you've got a little baby field model there, the owners of which would surely have bigger and badder ones to come and collect it with. But you would know all about that. What you might not know is that the people who actually run things around now, will snatch you right out of your shoes at the first possible instant they get wind of you and your ah....... thing.

The one thing that you are REALLY REALLY NOT supposed to do is show up with something that might be percieved to be "dangerous". You had better hide real good or get lost, one.

Been nice 'talking' to ya. Why not just spill the *entire* pan of beans before you split? Anything to piss off the rich folks, I say.

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I hope 'Mr. 0' is still there...

I'd like to believe you. What I need is one more prediction - you've predicted an American civil war in 2005; in order to fully believe you, I need one more unambiguous prediction like that. Something like, maybe, who will win the 100m in Salt Lake City. Really, anything like that, if I see two predictions like that come true you will have my unwavering belief. I'm a rationalist but not an idiot - the problem with most people who claim to time travel is that they have no evidence to back it up. What I ask for would be enough evidence for me, and probably most people.

[This message has been edited by Janus (edited 14 November 2000).]

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To: Shadow

If this shows up twice, I apologize.

(Your '67 Chev looks remarkably new.......hmmmm)

Thanks. I sold it when I arrived here. It attracted a great deal of attention. Perhaps that's why it was still around in 2036.

(...you are either in the employ of the US Army...)

More or less correct.

(Looks like you've got a little baby field model there, the owners of which would surely have bigger and badder ones to come and collect it with.)

Why would they come looking for me? I'm expected back but I will only have been gone a few seconds from their point of view.

(What you might not know is that the people who actually run things around now, will snatch you right out of your shoes at the first possible instant they get wind of you and your ah....... thing.)

Stupidity and greed are fairly predictable for a period of time.

(The one thing that you are REALLY REALLY NOT supposed to do is show up with something that might be percieved to be "dangerous".)

Have you considered that your society might be better off if half of you were dead?

(Why not just spill the *entire* pan of beans before you split? Anything to piss off the rich folks, I say.)

I'm thinking about it. I'm waiting for my family to buy up all the good stuff cheap first...(joke).

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To Janus:

(I'd like to believe you. What I need is one more prediction - you've predicted an American civil war in 2005; in order to fully believe you, I need one more unambiguous prediction like that.)

I appreciate the position you are in but you must realize that I am not affected in the least if you believe me or not.

(Something like, maybe, who will win the 100m in Salt Lake City.)

Off the top of your head, can you tell me if it rained in Atlanta this time last year? Do you think time travelers carry a sports reffrence with them?

(Really, anything like that, if I see two predictions like that come true you will have my unwavering belief.)

It is a mistake to give anyone your unwavering belief...but you will find that out yourself in 2005.

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To: Curious

(One last question, Can anybody operate the 204 unit? Or is it safe guarded by a "key of some kind? Thanks for answering. Yes, you would be welcome at my home.)

The unit has two security systems to protect it from "most" people. One, it has a code that must be entered correctly. Second, and probably more effective now, the unit can not be used by anyone who can't add and subtract.

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To Fast:

(i now understand the oxygen part,thought i found a slip in your trip(to coin a phrase) to our(or 1975...) time... why is it you traveled to 1975 anyway??)

The first "leg" of my trip was from 2036 to 1975. After two VGL checks, the divergance was estimated at about 2.5% (from my 2036). I was "sent" to get an IBM computer system called the 5100. It was one the first portable computers made and it has the ability to read the older IBM programming langages in addition to APL and Basic. We need they system to "debug" various lagacy computer programs in 2036. UNIX has a problem in 2038.

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Guest Shadow

For totally selfish reasons I would like to know how one would communicate across time periods? Think of the grief one could save themselves by simply by calling yourself at 6AM from 6PM and getting the lowdown on the days pitfalls.

It is tough for me to visualize how, from our perspective, the future is frozen solid such that you could knock around here for a week or two and yet scarcely a blink of an eye has passed in 2036.

If you want to get peoples attention, it seemes to me that a pocket full of real US currency and coins dated 2001 and up would cause a stir. It could be used as a standard test to see who is braindead and who can add 2+2.

You speak of 1 & 2 % "divergence" as being unimportant. I don't get it. Like for example if OUR IBM5100 is 1% different than the code you have to run on it, it ain't gonna work right. One percent in the FL vote count would be important. If I could see only 99% of the cars on the road it would be important to me. So, what exactly is X% divergent, and why is it not a major problem?

Janus is a Scientist. Don't mess with him!

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Guest Shadow

Oh, sorry Janus, forget I said that. I must have gotten your post mixed up with somebody eleses.

To TimeTravler_0
The trouble with having the "half the population dead" is that before the fact, one cannot tell to which half ones' self belongs. The politics of who gets thrown out of the lifeboat and who gets to stay is not topic for polite conversation. So lets ask the question in the affirmative. " What does one have to do in order to stay on the lifeboat?"

I don't immagine you have much a fondness for the CJD (mad cow) prion. Any advise on how to defeat or avoid this plauge?

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_0 ---Just popped in for a minute. If your on the level could you be so kind as to drop me off in 1880. No, I'm not kidding. If you pick up hitch hikers I'd really like a ride. Also, I've missed you Pamela and Time and the ever evasive Doc.

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Mokrie!!!!!!!
{{{{{HUG}}}}}}
I missed you to. I was wondering what world you fell into ( heheheh.)
hey now...only so many of us can fit into the 4x4! I asked first! I get the front seat!!!! heheh.
Doc if you are out there somewhere you need to respond! we are worried about you. alot of people have written you and you have not responded. your friends care about you!

sincerely,
pamela

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Guest daViper

Shadow:

There is only ever one "time period" to communicate in. This one. The "now".

In the classic so called "twins paradox", the two are always in the same time line.

Visualize the traveling twin doing this travel always in sight of Earth. Orbiting the Sun at near the spped of light. He is always visible from Earth via telescope and radio. Although there will be some doppler shifting in his image and radio signals, communication is nevertheless still possible. Just difficult. He is traveling for what seems to be his Earth bound twin's span of 50 years. During his voyage, he ALSO counts the Earth rotating around the Sun 50 times! Yup. That's the way it works. Yet when he finally lands back on Earth, he has aged only 5 years! Relativity has slowed his BIOLOGICAL clock, relative to his twin. Not time itself. Just like it slows the atomic clock on the moving jet plane, relative to the one left on the ground. Gravity has little or nothing to do with it. It is the difference in RELATIVE velocity that produces what gets measured as time dilation. The same is tru for the twins. Actually, neither twin left the other's time line. Both were always in the same one. Both counted 50 revolutions of the Earth around the Sun, but the travelers biological CLOCK ran slower. That's all.

There is no paradox. And communiction across "time periods" is only ever communication across the same time period.

Where I am now, it's 11:30 AM. But in Japan, it's 4:30 TOMMORROW MORNING. But me and the Japanese are still in the same time line, time period (in the greater sense), and can communicate with each other just fine.

The past has gone by. The future hasn't happened yet. And all the near light speed travel or power sources that alter matter can't change that. It's a rather fundamental law of the universe.

Even Einstein only ever said time running backwards during faster than light travel, MIGHT be possible. He NEVER said for sure that it was true or for certain WOULD occur. And even withdrew further and further from this original position as he got older.

In the pure scientific sense, we need to always be vigilant as to the difference in what constitutes hypothesis, and what constitutes theory.

Good science always tries to DISPROVE hypothesis. Not prove it. Failure to DIS-prove it is what then results in what becomes evolving theory. And still only theory at that.

Enjoy.

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DaViper....biological clock ran slower?

Can you explain this concept further?


sincerely,
pamela

[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 17 November 2000).]

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It is thought that being close to a gravitational field has a biological effect on all matter including cells. The effect is to slow the movement of electrons in the orbits of their nucleus which thus slows the mechanical and bilological functions of the observer close to the gravity.

Thus the passing of time is a local phenomenon depending on how close you are to a gravitational source.

This is one example of a theory involving "time shells" progressing in size and intensity around a gravitational point from all matter. The more massive the object, the larger and more influencial the time shells around it (like an onion). Another offshoot of this theory is that kinetic energy is actually the conversion of stored energy in the atom as it passes through time shells in a gravitational field.

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Time travel_0-
Would this serve a purpose to put cloned or donated organs in a feild to keep it as fresh and unaged as possible until ready to transplant into the new recepient patient?

In response to your last e-mail...
you never know what my future will hold.
maybe I'll be visiting YOU. (maybe in one of those advanced distortion units.)

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Guest Shadow

To daViper

Here's the way I see it if I want to "foot travel or acre travel" or even frothing at the mouth mad dog banana split travel then I will just get on with it. I don't need you to tell me I can't. Heck if I want to pretend that I'm Superman and fly around the sun 50 times to save Lois Lane........oh excuse me THAT ONE was YOUR idea.

We got a guy on here whom I believe to be an actual time traveler, somebody that knows about gravic shells. artificial singularities, computers and the history of the next 36 years. Somebody who has "been there done that" and I don't really want to hear you spouting off about what you learned in 6th grade science class. I took the same class 35 years ago. Here is a news flash for you; Einstien was out of date 60 years ago.

You say there is no possibility of any time paradox ever occuring. How in heck would you know? Even if you are right on this one, its a lucky guess on your part. You don't know. I don't think you could think your way out of a paper bag.

You said that it is "tommorrow in Japan". Does that mean that it is yesterday in Spain? Good grief, get a grip. If you would think a little more yourself, maybe you would be less inclined to tell everybody else how to do it.

I do advise however, that you could stick around and learn something.

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Shadow,
I have to hand it to you that was funny!bananna split travel...hehheh
your a good person I can tell.
I personally cannot understand why someone posts on a timetravel web site that doesnot beleive time travel is or ever will be possible. but Im glad they do because I do learn things from them.
I think it a little humerous..... although it would be foolish to beleive everyone that says they are a time travler that shows up on here, and we have actually disproved several fake attempts. I beleive if a real time traveler actually showed up... nobody would even beleive them. there is only a couple of people on here who even asked this guy questions. even though this web site gets an average hit of about 98 people in a 12 hour period.
how could you ever come to the knowledge of the truth if you dont ask questions?
my question is....do we really beleive time travel is possible or do we have to be one who experiences a little of it first before we will even consider it?
Is time travel ever going to be a possibility in our future? if the answer is yes but not for thousands of years...well if they travel back to our time then it now becomes a possibility in our time as well.


DaViper? why is it you have not attempted to Disprove why the diagrams could not work?
why have you not argued against the use of singularities? or why it could not be possible for him to be here? Is it because you don't understand what it is you are seeing? I want to hear the arguments why nobody beleives this could be a possibility ....dont any of you people have an opinion?
In our current view of things The possibility of it not being true is pretty high for a time traveler to openly expose himself in this manner..but..what if in his world time travel is not a secret?
In relating to a time traveler from a future time may be like relating to an alien from another country,another dimension or even another world. you first have to understand the environment from which they came. depending on how far in the future it would be.. their thinking would not be the same on certain issues because of how they were raised in their environment.
I think it is as he has said though that some people would not beleive it even if the machine was right in front of them.

Just consider for a moment.... what if it was true? what a great opportunity you have all lost.

sincerely,
pamela

[This message has been edited by pamela (edited 18 November 2000).]

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Guest Curious

My opinion is that there is a high probability that he (Timetravel_0) is as he has represented him self. And to add to that, what makes anybody so sure there hasn't been others? How would you know? Do you think they will show you a time travel visa? It is sometimes amazing how great the human mind is able to except new ideas. The (energy field) diagram in the manual looks very similar to some diagrams that were perported to be from the Philadephia Project.(from an Al Beilek video tape) Just my opinion, I could be wrong...........

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Guest Dr Light

Now then..

If i go back to the year 1960 and give the scientist community there a book on advanced electronics in computers , would it not be that they would READ this book and design say, a pentium 3 chip in 1960 that would forward our technology advances 40 years?

if that is so how would this timeline be like? Would we have far better microproccessors here in 2000?

The materials needed to produce a chip like the P3 for example were availiable (to an extent) in 1960. So it would not be unheard of for me to jump back in time , give a book on microprocessors to IBM and see what they come up with...

A thought...

Did anyone witness the giant computer "boom"
of the late 60's? Computer technology went from basic 286 processors to great big polygon crunchers in the early 90's. In the space a short 10 years microprocessor speeds have doubled every six months...

Technology is advancing at an incredible rate which leads me to think that perhaps we were visited by timetravelers in the 60's or thereof, in order to further the advancement of the human race. How does one explain the massive technology jumps from the moonlanding to our present time?

Seems to quick to go from a 286 to a 1 GHZ...
I think we had help , but thats my opinion.

Insights? Opinions?

Thankyou.

Dr Light

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according to TT0,our technology would not change in the least..you would return you your original dimension and the book would(POSSIBLY) advance some other dimension's technology...


Fast Out

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Guest Dr Light

But if the parallel worlds theory is true , that would make the book in question be relevant to ALL worlds including the one i just came from...

Therefore that would make technology jumps for all of the worlds, not just every dimension besides mine.

Perhaps it would evolve differently for my dimension but there is still the fact that it WOULD evolve because i went back and changed history for every world.

But....
that's my opinion...

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